Category: Stars of Blood and Glory

Q1 2012, or what writer’s angst looks like

Actually, this last quarter wasn’t quite so bad as the title might make it seem.  For the first part, I was on roll, writing almost 25k new words a week.  But then I finished that project, started a new career, moved to the other side of the world…yeah, my writing took a hit.  Or at least, that’s how it feels.

In January, I was working on Stars of Blood and Glory, and was really on a roll.  The application process for TLG was still pending, but I pretty much knew I was getting in, and since I was staying with my parents until it went through, I didn’t have to worry much about money issues.  With lots of writing time, I finished SBG in about 6 weeks and published Journey to Jordan.  Life was good.

After Stars of Blood and Glory, I went back to Star Wanderers, finishing up Part II and starting Part III.  However, something felt wrong, and I didn’t really know what it was.  With my TLG departure date imminent, it was really hard to focus, and I wasn’t in much of a position to move on to anything else.  That’s when the angst began.

I flew out to Georgia on February 15th, did a week of training in Tbilisi, and then was whisked about 220 kilometers away to Kutaisi.  As a consequence, I didn’t get any real writing done for almost a month.  However, I didn’t have any major challenges navigating the new culture, and was soon settled pretty comfortably.

The trouble was, nothing was working.  Star Wanderers was broken, and I was too close to the project to fix it.  But after putting it on the back burner, I didn’t know what to do.  For most of March, I switched from one project to another.  Nothing seemed to stick, though, and by the end, I was getting pretty antsy.

What if I’d made a mistake to come to Georgia?  What if that was the reason nothing was working?  It sounds silly now, but that was what was going through my mind.  I still worry about it a little, but I think it has to do more with my creative process than anything here in Georgia.

I have a very non-linear way of writing first drafts.  After starting the revision for Heart of the Nebula and making some good progress on that, I got an idea for Star Wanderers and moved back to that.  At this point, I think the only way to get productive again is to finish that project, even if it sucks.  I’ve got a lot of great ideas for other stories, but until I can close the book on this one, I don’t think I’ll be able to make much progress.

So that’s where things stand right now.  All in all, it wasn’t a bad quarter, but I’ll be happy when I’ve actually finished something for a change.  Hopefully, that’ll only be a couple of weeks.  In the meantime, I’ll keep writing.

Trope Tuesday: True Neutral

The True Neutral is something of an enigma.  They generally take no side, either because they have moved beyond good and evil, or because they simply don’t see good and evil the way we do.  Or because this isn’t their war and they just want to be left alone.  Or…well, let’s get to it.

From the easydamus character alignment page:

A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality.

Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.

As you might expect, this alignment doesn’t describe just one type of character.  In fact, there are many different archetypes that fall under True Neutral.  They include:

That’s quite a spread, isn’t it?  The main thing to keep in mind is that these are the characters who refuse to take sides–not just in whatever overworld conflict is driving the story, but in the ethical questions that the story raises (unless neutrality itself is their answer).

My favorite example of this trope is the Childlike Empress from The Neverending Story.  As the very embodiment of Fantasia, she transcends good and evil so completely that her power, the Auryn, cannot be used to forbid a monster from acting on its own evil nature.  Truth from Fullmetal Alchemist is another good example of a transcendent True Neutral.

With everyday, down-to-earth characters, though, this alignment tends to tick me off.  The Ents, for example, very much fall under this trope (as does Tom Bombadil…unless you subscribe to this theory).  Most others examples either come across as weak, selfish, or cowardly to me, so I don’t really care much for this alignment–unless it’s the starting point of a well-constructed character arc.

For that reason, in my own work, most True Neutrals are either straight-up antagonists or gradually shift in alignment as the story progresses.  In Genesis Earth, Michael Anderson starts out as one of the weaker True Neutral types, but changes as events in the story make him grow.  In Desert Stars, Sathi probably falls into this type, though I’m not so sure; either way, he’s very easily manipulated by his Neutral Evil wife.  In Bringing Stella Home, Ilya falls under this alignment due to his moral cowardice, and Anya might as well, though more as a Selfish Good than anything else.  Roman probably does too, but more because he’s old and wants to give up the fight; that’s something I’m currently working on in Stars of Blood and Glory.

I haven’t done a transcendent True Neutral yet, but if I ever write a heroic fantasy tale with gods and demons, I probably will.  After all, if Michael Ende did it in my favorite novel of all time, how can I resist?

Trope Tuesday: Lawful Neutral

Hey, SOMEONE had to bring order to Europa.

Unlike the Lawful Good, the Lawful Neutral has no qualms about committing heinous acts to maintain order.  Whether for country, for position or for the preservation of the English language, these characters believe in law above all else, giving stern chase or sacrificing their own personal feelings to achieve it.

From the easydamus character alignment page:

A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.

Interestingly, while Lawful Neutrals believe in upholding some form of law, it doesn’t always have to be the law.  Characters who follow a strict personal code of honor often fall under this alignment, even if that code of honor runs contrary to the law of the land.  The most extreme example of this is the Übermensch, who transcends the laws of society and becomes a law unto himself (though in a lot of cases, the Übermensch ends up being Lawful Evil).

While it may seem like most Lawful Neutrals would be antagonists, that’s not always the case.  In Fullmetal Alchemist, General Olivier Armstrong may be stern and austere, but she spends most of the story on the side of the good guys.  And in Girl Genius, Klaus might seem like a bad guy at first, but really, he just wants to restore order and defeat the Other.  Both Death and Lord Vetinari in the Discworld series are also Lawful Neutrals, but they’re never on the bad guys’ side or the good guys’ side…they’re neutral.

In my own work, the best example of this would probably be the Patrician from Heart of the Nebula. I haven’t published this one yet, but I hope to have it out later this year.  Abaqa from Stars of Blood and Glory is another good example, the son of Qasar and Sholpan.  But in the works I’ve already published, Ben from Bringing Stella Home is probably the most prominent Lawful Neutral.

Back to writing (and publishing)

I was snowed in again this weekend, so I took advantage of the time to work on my writing–specifically, to figure out what to work on next.  Things have been kind of crazy these past few weeks, so I haven’t written very much, but now that I’ve settled into a new routine, it should be much easier to get back to writing again.

The plan is to finish Star Wanderers first, before April.  After taking a couple weeks off, I think I’m ready to get back into that project and write through the wall that I’d run up against earlier.  Besides, Stars of Blood and Glory needs more time; it’s only been about a month since I finished the last draft, and that’s not long enough to get a fresh perspective.

I’m a little past the midway point on Star Wanderers–around the middle of part III–so it should be about 20k to 25k before the whole novel is finished.  I wrote the first part in a little less than two weeks, so three weeks should be enough to finish at least the rough draft.  The main thing is to write every day and get some momentum going, which shouldn’t be too hard–I’m still really excited about this project.

As you may recall, I submitted Part I to Writers of the Future.  From lurking on the forums, it appears that the first round of rejections and honorable mentions are starting to come out.  I haven’t heard anything yet, so I’m still in the running.  Since no news is good news at this point, part of me hopes that I don’t hear back for a while–but the other part wants to hear back soon, so I can go ahead and publish it!

Here’s the current plan:

  1. Finish the rough draft of the complete novel.
  2. Publish Part I at $1.50 (free to newsletter subscribers).
  3. Get feedback for part II, revise and publish.
  4. Repeat for Parts III and IV, with one or two months between each release.

As a teaser, here’s the cover that I made when I was back in Massachusetts.  I decided to go with some NASA / Hubble images, at least for the first release.  Here it is:

Everything is ready to go; I just need to hear back from Writers of the Future before I can publish it.  I’m going to wait until the rest of the novel is finished, though, just to be safe.  Expect to see it sometime in April (unless it’s a finalist for WOTF–hey, you never know).

Enough for now; I’d better get back to writing.  See you around!

Getting settled in the land of the Kartulis

About three weeks have passed since I came to Georgia, and I’m starting to feel comfortably settled in this new place.  I like it a lot out here: my host family is great, I get along really well with everyone at the school where I work, the kids are so crazy eager to learn it’s awesome…really, I couldn’t ask for more.

Of all the places in Georgia where TLG volunteers are placed, Kutaisi seems like one of the best.  It’s the second largest city in the country, so it has access to several amenities such as markets, hospitals, restaurants, parks, and basically anything else you’d  expect in an urban center.  However, it’s about 200 km from Tbilisi and has very little exposure to the West, so culturally it’s very authentically Georgian.  It’s also much less crowded, and (in my opinion) much more beautiful.

My host family is great; I get along with them real well and already feel like a member of the family.   My youngest host brother, Kako, is 9 years old; I showed him Star Control II over the weekend, and he’s been addicted to it ever since.  We also play chess, and I’ve kind of taken him under my wing to teach him the basics of good strategy.  He’s getting steadily better!

Gura and Kati are the two teenage kids; they also speak English, so we’ve had some fun discussions.  Besides Facebook and her cell phone, Kati is really into books; I showed her my Kindle, and she wants me to help her persuade her father to get her one!  Gura is into Call of Duty and spends a lot of time hanging out with his friends; he lacks confidence when it comes to English, but he knows it better than he thinks he does.

The parents don’t speak much English, but they are really good people.  It’s a working class family; the dad works as a welder, and the mom is a nurse part-time and a home-maker full time.  They spend an amazing amount of time and energy on their kids, which is pretty typical for this part of the world.  They’re both non-smokers, and they’re very respectful of the fact that I don’t drink coffee, tea, or alcohol.  Some of the extended family keeps trying to push wine on me, but in the land known as the cradle of wine, that’s to be expected.

We basically spend all of our time in the family room when we aren’t sleeping; it’s where the heater is, so despite the relatively cramped space it’s the most comfortable room in the apartment.  Furniture consists of a couch, a computer desk and office chair, a bucket seat from an old van, a folding table, several small wooden chairs and a stool.  The TV isn’t quite a member of the family, but when the power isn’t out, it’s usually on.

The neighborhood is this bizarre mix of urban and rural elements.  The roads are super muddy and free-range chickens wander everywhere at will, but everyone lives in 9-story apartments that were built back in the Soviet days, when Kutaisi was a major center for the auto industry.  The school was built 50 years ago this year and has barely been renovated since, but it’s just starting to get some much-needed attention, with a computer center and a resource room for special needs students.  When the weather clears up, I’ll bring my camera to school and take some pictures so you can see what the classes are like.

I’ll have to do a post later on Georgian culture; there are some really bizarre and paradoxical juxtapositions, such as the way they mix religion and alcohol, or their strong belief in the nuclear family with their easy-going acceptance of bride-napping as a “Georgian tradition.” I have yet to really get a handle on all this stuff.  However, as a culture, they have a great respect for literature; when people ask my profession and I tell them I’m a writer, their eyes light up, and they show me a degree of deference that I never would have gotten back in the States.

Partly to have something to talk with them about, I’m reading War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy right now.  I just finished Book III, where Napoleon smashes the Russians and Austrians in the Battle of Three Emperors.  Everyone says that it’s the best novel ever written, and now that I’m in the thick of it, I’m starting to agree with them.  There’s a lot of really good storytelling here, as well as passion and depth.  I have the feeling that I’m going to be on a Russian literature trip for a while, though I should probably pick up some Rustaveli and Kurban Said as well.

As far as writing goes, I’ve had some difficulty settling down into a solid routine, not because of lack of time so much as trouble with my current WIPs.  Star Wanderers has more or less stalled; I ran into another wall midway through part III, and I’m still not quite sure how to get past it.  I’ve decided to take a break for a while, but I think my experiences here with the Georgian language are going to give me what I need to really make this novel come together.

In the meantime, I’m working on the 2.0 draft of Stars of Blood and Glory.  I’ve decided to try something new: revising not by chapter, but by viewpoint character.  Isolating each of the five viewpoints is helping me to see which ones work, and which ones are missing something.  I’ve also been using Dan Well’s 7-point outlining method, which is helping out a ton.

It feels like I could be writing more, but I’m not pushing myself too hard at this point.  I’m still adjusting to life in this totally new culture, and I’m also spending a lot of energy getting my TEFL career off on the right foot.  It’s paying off; I’m having a great time teaching, more than I thought I would.  Pretty soon, though, I’m going to start putting more energy into my writing.  I just hope that I’ll have enough mental space left over to really immerse myself and make it work.

Trope Tuesday: Neutral Good

Arguably the best of the good-aligned characters, the Neutral Good can always be counted on to do the right thing, whether that means working within the system or rebelling against it.  Whether young or old, soft or shrewd, nice or not so nice, these are the guys (and girls) most likely to save the world and defeat the enemy with love.

From the easydamus character alignment page:

A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them.

The Neutral Good is not devoid of weaknesses, of course.  Although they are devoted to good, their lack of commitment to law means that they are not always willing to enforce it.  Also, for those who just want to get things done, this alignment can be somewhat limiting, in the way that a commitment to any higher ideal usually is.

Interestingly, this is a very common alignment for heroes in space opera stories.  Case in point, Luke Skywalker: even though he’s young and reckless, he’s not above learning the ways of the force and joining the Jedi order.  Miles Vorkosigan from Lois McMaster Bujold’s Vorkosigan series also falls squarely into the Neutral Good camp.  Moving on to manga and webcomics, Alphonse and Winry from Fullmetal Alchemist both fall under this alignment, giving balance to Edward’s more chaotic outbursts.  Agatha from Girl Genius is also a Neutral Good…at least, when there aren’t any wrenches nearby.

There are quite a few characters with this alignment in my own work.  Even though she’s a mercenary captain, Danica from Bringing Stella Home falls squarely into this alignment; she’s got a tough outer shell, but she’ll do anything for her men, even…well, I don’t want to ruin Stars of Blood and Glory. 😉 Also from Bringing Stella Home / Sholpan, Stella is solidly Neutral Good, which is part of why the ending is so deliciously twisted.  In Star Wanderers, Jeremiah falls into this alignment mostly through default, which is good for Noemi because the circumstances of the novel put her totally at his mercy.  And in Desert Stars, this is probably Mira’s alignment, though she’s easily manipulated by her Neutral Evil mother.

What can I say?  I’ve got a soft spot for Neutral Goods.  Considering how well this kind of a hero fits in to a classic space adventure, it shouldn’t come as any surprise.

Trope Tuesday: Lawful Evil

If the term “villain” applies to anyone, it applies to the Lawful Evil.  Whether the evil overlord, his trusted right-hand man, or one of his devoted minions, these characters are dedicated wholeheartedly to their cause, whether they believe it will lead to a better world or not.  Taking over the world is often a major obsession, because hey, someone’s got to do it.  A staple of the evil empire, these guys often turn their country into an industrialized wasteland, though they often have propaganda machines to take care of any bad press.  Bonus points if they can transform into a freakish monster in battle.

From the easydamus character alignment page:

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

While Lawful Evils believe in following rules and keeping their word, they’re not above emotional manipulation, negotiating unfavorable contracts, or following the law in letter only.  Even so, they tend to suffer from genre blindness and bureaucratic stupidity (as well as megalomania–but hey, that’s part of the job description).

According to tvtropes, Lawful Evils come in four types:

  1. The supreme ruler, dedicated to establishing and maintaining a civic order that is itself evil.  A good example of this would be Sauron from The Lord of the Rings.
  2. A zealot or übermensch whose moral code falls outside of established social norms.  Khan from The Wrath of Khan is a pretty good example of this, as is Tyler Durden from Fight Club (though your mileage may vary).
  3. The Dragon or other minion who may have their own goals, but answers to the big bad.  Darth Vader is probably the most well-known example.
  4. A complete monster who is dedicated to the destruction of free will and liberty.  The Mormon conception of Satan fits this perfectly.

The scary thing about this trope is that it actually exists in real life.  In fact, outside of our sheltered middle-class, liberal democratic existence (a relatively recent and unusual development in the eyes of history), this type of overlord tends to be the rule and not the exception.  You don’t have to look any further than North Korea, Burma, or Syria for examples of this–which is to say nothing of the Soviet Union, the Third Reich, or the British Empire.

My favorite example of this trope is probably Darth Vader, not just because of how badass he is, but because of his heel face turn at the end of Return of the Jedi.  Ignoring how bad episodes I, II, and III were, his character arc really is the thing that makes that story.  And while we’re on the subject of history, let’s not forget this epic showdown between Stalin and Hitler.  Seriously, click that link.

In my own work, the best example of a Lawful Evil would probably be Qasar from Bringing Stella Home / Sholpan.  He’s more of the affable type than a true evil overlord, though; that would be Tagatai, who doesn’t really come to power until Stars of Blood and Glory. A much more sinister example would be Emile from Heart of the Nebula, or the villain I have planned for Edenfall–I’d better finish those!  And of course, there’s Sheikh Sathi from Desert Stars, though he’s mostly a type 3 Lawful Evil under the thumb of his Neutral Evil wife.

Perhaps one of the reasons I haven’t done a truly despicable Lawful Evil yet is because I’ve been kind of sheltered here in the states.  It will be interesting to see how my writing changes after spending some time in Eastern Europe; Georgia, after all, is the homeland of Stalin.

Darth Vader helmet taken from this site.

STARS OF BLOOD AND GLORY 1.1 is finished!

That’s right!  After what felt like six hours of un-anesthetized brain surgery, Stars of Blood and Glory 1.0 is finally complete!  Here are the stats:

words: 76,326
chapters: 18, prologue & epilogue
ms pages: 360
start date: 20 Dec 2011
end date: 2 Feb 2011

Some extended stats, just for fun:

days spent writing: 36
miles traveled: ~5,500
viewpoint characters: 5
characters from other novels: 9
major characters who die: 3
space battles: 5
planets slagged: 1

The wordsplash:

Wordle: Stars of Blood and Glory 1.1

And the most influential song while writing:

It’s good to finish another novel, but this one definitely needs a lot of work before I feel that it’s of publishable quality.  I think I know how to fix it, but my mind needs a break in order to give it a fresh approach.  I’ll probably let it settle for a few months, then come back either this spring or summer.

I’m pleasantly surprised with how quickly I was able to finish this book.  Thirty-six writing days is something of a personal record.  Still, it feels like it needs a little more fleshing out.  76k is definitely too short for a novel of this type; hopefully in the second draft, I’ll be able to bring it up to 80k or 90k.

In other news, I heard back from the TLG program, and I’m happy to say I’ve been accepted!  I’ll fly out to Georgia in a little less than two weeks, have a seven day orientation period at Kutaisi, then ship off to wherever the Ministry of Education decides to send me.  I’ll be there until at least June, then either renew for a second semester or go somewhere else, maybe Eastern Europe or the Middle East.

Needless to say, I’m pretty excited!  Hopefully, this new career will be a good fit, and I’ll have many awesome adventures in the next few years.  Even if my writing starts to take off and my books start selling hand over fist, I’ll probably keep teaching for a while just for the experience.  Writing is fun, but when you have nothing else to keep you busy it can also get quite boring.

The next few weeks are going to be pretty freaking busy, so I’m probably going to ease off on the writing, at least until I get settled into the new routine.  Before I leave, I need to:

  • Find affordable expat insurance.
  • Pick up a 220 to 120 volt converter and plug adapter.
  • Publish Journey to Jordan on Amazon and B&N.
  • Get some new clothes.
  • Clean my parents’ guest room.
  • File state taxes for Utah (federal taxes are already filed).
  • Write up the last couple of Trope Tuesday posts for the backlog.
  • Finish the covers for Star Wanderers (while I still have access to my desktop computer).
  • Read up on Georgian customs and mentally prepare myself for the inevitable culture shock.

Shouldn’t be too hard, but it’s only going to get crazier once I’m over there.  I’ll be sure to keep you updated as much as I can, though; this is going to be fun!

So yeah, another novel down; this one makes my sixth.  Just another 94 to go before I reach my lifetime goal of one hundred!

Tomorrow, tomorrow

So, I was going to finish Stars of Blood and Glory today…and then I went and spent some time with an old friend, had some dinner and spent the evening with the missionaries…long story short, I think it would be better just to wait until tomorrow than to do a rush job tonight.

I’ve only got two scenes and an epilogue left, which is very strange, because the novel isn’t even 75k words long yet.  Something definitely seems to be missing, and it probably has to do with the storyline of the new characters I introduced.  They’re the prince and princess of a futuristic Japanese culture (with a mix of Polynesian elements) that’s built on giant floating cities on a water world that never fell to the Hameji.  I think I skipped a little too much on the research, so the culture doesn’t feel fleshed out enough at this point.  Also, there’s a whole host of minor characters that I neglected to even give names; in the next draft, I’ll have to work out who they are and how they fit into things.

I’ll definitely finish this book tomorrow, though.  There’s nothing stopping me, and I really need to get it done.

After that, the plan is to immerse myself in the world of Star Wanderers.  I’ve got to be honest, I’m really looking forward to it.  This story came to me like a love child: completely unexpected at a time when I was supposed to be working on other things.  And yet, few other projects I’ve worked on have given me so much satisfaction.  When I let my mind wander, I inevitably find myself daydreaming about it.  And yet, it’s not a story I can force.  I tried that once, and it was as if the characters just refused to cooperate; the answer, quite firmly, was “no.”

As for my next publishing project, I’m going to try to get the illustrated version of Journey to Jordan formatted and up on Amazon and Barnes & Noble before the end of the week. It’s a little intimidating, because I don’t yet know how to add pictures in html such that they turn out well in ebook format.  However, I think it will be a good learning experience, once I climb the learning curve.  Expect to see some news about that very soon.

And as for my New Year’s goal to read a book every week…I know, I know, I missed it last week.  But I plan to make up for it with a couple of really good books in the next couple of days.  Both of them are indie published, and they’re both really fun reads.  The only reason I haven’t finished them is because I’ve been too busy working on my own projects.

So on that note, I think I’m going to retire for the evening with a good book while I wait with baited breath for Kris Rusch’s next Business Rusch post to go live.  Have a good night!

Quick update and Star Wanderers cover previews

First off, I’m happy to say that Stars of Blood and Glory is coming along quite nicely.  I’m currently finishing up with the last couple of chapters, and should have the first draft done by the middle of next week.  Hopefully by then I’ll know if and when I’m starting my TEFL job overseas, but I’m sure I’ll have it finished before then.

This first draft is pretty rough, so I’m sure it’ll be a while before it’s up and ready for you to read.  For some reason, this draft is extremely short–I doubt it’ll be much longer than 80,000 words.  I don’t know if that means my writing has gotten tighter since Bringing Stella Home, or if I’ve unintentionally left too much out.  I’ll probably let it simmer for a few months, do a quick revision, and send it out to some first readers, just like I’ve done for Heart of the Nebula.

In the meantime, I’m getting really excited to pick up work again on Star Wanderers. I’ve been workshopping part II in Kindal’s writing group, just to get some reactions.  I’ll probably revise that part while I’m writing parts III and IV, getting it ready for publication after I hear back from Writers of the Future according to the serial model I outlined previously.

I’m so excited, in fact, that I went ahead and made some mock-ups for the cover art!

Pretty cool, huh?  These make me sooo happy. 🙂

I’m not quite sure if this is the right design, though.  Star Wanderers is very much a science fiction romance, and while these covers definitely scream “science fiction!” they don’t really seem to say “romance!”

My original idea was to use these as backgrounds and commission an artist to do some character portraits from the waist up, using one portrait each for the foreground.  But then again, that might make the covers a bit too complicated.  I can always redo the first one to get rid of the planet, keeping the galaxy–the other ones probably wouldn’t be so bad with a character in the middle.  But then again…

I don’t know.  What do you guys think?  If you saw one of these covers while browsing for ebooks, what kind of impression would it give you, and would you be interested in checking it out?

(By the way, I made the covers with Celestia.  Coolest.  Space simulation.  Ever.)

EDIT: I decided to redo the first cover; the planet wasn’t quite doing it for me.  I’m not sure if that means I should redo the cover for the third part, since that one is a heck of a lot more colorful than the others…hmm.  We’ll have to see.